Interview with Martin
Harris
in Tiffany's Monthly
1859
New York:
Published by Joel Tiffany, No. 6 4th
Ave.
"THE following narration we
took down from the lips of Martin Harris, and read the same to him after it was
written, that we might be certain of giving his statement to the world. We made
a journey to Ohio for the purpose of obtaining it, in the latter part of
January, 1859. We did this that the world might have connected account of the
origin of Mormonism from the lips of one of the original witnesses, upon whose
testimony it was first received. For it will be remembered that Martin Harris is
one of the three witnesses selected to certify to the facts connected with the
origin of that revelation.
Mr. Harris says: 'Joseph Smith, jr., found at Palmyra,
N. Y., on the 22d day of September, 1827, the plates of gold upon which was
recorded in Arabic, Chaldaic, Syriac, and Egyptian, the Book of Life, or the
Book of Mormon. I was not with him at the time, but I had a revelation the
summer before, that God had a work for me to do. These plates were found at the
north point of a hill two miles north of Manchester village. Joseph had a stone
which was dug from the well of Mason Chase, twenty-four feet from the surface.
In this stone he could see many thing to my certain knowledge. It was by means
of this stone he first discovered these plates.
In the first place, he told me of this stone, and
proposed to bind it on his eyes, and run a race with me in the woods. A few days
after this, I was at the house of his father in Manchester, two miles south of
Palmyra village, and was picking my teeth with a pin while sitting on the bars.
The pin caught in my teeth, and dropped from my fingers into shavings and straw.
I jumped from the bars and looked for it. Joseph and Northrop Sweet also did the
same. We could not find it. I then took Joseph on surprise, and said to him--I
said, ‘Take your stone.’ I had never seen it, and did not know that he had it
with him. He had it in his pocket. He took it and placed it in his hat-- the old
white hat--and placed his face in his hat. I watched him closely to see that he
did not look one side; he reached out his hand beyond me on the right, and moved
a little stick, and there I saw the pin, which he picked up and gave to me. I
know he did not look out of the hat until after he had picked up the pin.
Joseph had had this stone for some time. There was a
company there in that neighborhood, who were digging for money supposed to have
been hidden by the ancients. Of this company were old Mr. Stowel--I think his
name was Josiah--also old Mr. Beman, also Samuel Lawrence, George Proper, Joseph
Smith, jr., and his father, and his brother Hiram [Hyrum] Smith. They dug for
money in Palmyra, Manchester, also in Pennsylvania, and other places. When
Joseph found this stone, there was a company digging in Harmony, Pa., and they
took Joseph to look in the stone for them, and he did so for a while, and then
he told them the enchantment was so strong that he could not see, and they gave
it up. There he became acquainted with his future wife, the daughter of old Mr.
Isaac Hale, where he boarded. He afterwards returned to Pennsylvania again, and
married his wife, taking her off to old Mr. Stowel’s, because her people would
not consent to the marriage. She was of age, Joseph was not.
After this, on the 22d of September, 1827, before day,
Joseph took the horse and wagon of old Mr. Stowel, and taking his wife, he went
to the place where the plates were concealed, and while he was obtaining them,
she kneeled down and prayed. He then took the plates and hid them in an old
black oak tree top which was hollow. Mr. Stowel was at this time at old Mr.
Smith’s, digging for money. It was reported by these money-diggers, that they
had found boxes, but before they could secure them, they would sink into the
earth. A candid old Presbyterian told me, that on the Susquehannah flats he dug
down to an iron chest, that he scraped the dirt off with his shovel, but had
nothing with him to open the chest; that he went away to get help, and when they
came to it, it moved away two or three rods into the earth, and they could not
get it. There were a great many strange sights. One time the old log
school-house south of Palmyra, was suddenly lighted up, and frightened them
away. Samuel Lawrence told me that while they were digging, a large man who
appeared to be eight or nine feet high, came and sat on the ridge of the barn,
and motioned to them that they must leave. They motioned back that they would
not; but that they afterwards became frightened and did leave. At another time
while they were digging, a company of horsemen came and frightened them away.
These things were real to them, I believe because they were told to me in
confidence, and told by different ones, and their stories agreed, and they
seemed to be in earnest--I knew they were in earnest.
Joseph did not dig for these plates. They were placed
in this way: four stones were set up and covered with a flat stone, oval on the
upper side and flat on the bottom. Beneath this was a little platform upon which
the plates were laid; and the two stones set in a bow of silver by means of
which the plates were translated, were found underneath the plates.
These plates were seven inches wide by eight inches in
length, and were of the thickness of plates of tin; and when piled one above the
other, they were altogether about four inches thick; and they were put together
on the back by three silver rings, so that they would open like a book.
The two stones set in a bow of silver were about two
inches in diameter, perfectly round, and about five-eighths of an inch thick at
the centre; but not so thick at the edges where they came into the bow. They
were joined by a round bar of silver, about three-eighths of an inch in
diameter, and about four inches long, which, with the two stones, would make
eight inches.
The stones were white, like polished marble, with a
few gray streaks. I never dared to look into them by placing them in the hat,
because Moses said that ‘no man could see God and live,’ and we could see
anything we wished by looking into them; and I could not keep the desire to see
God out of my mind. And beside, we had a command to let no man look into them,
except by the command of God, lest he should ‘look aught and perish.’
These plates were usually kept in a cherry box made
for that purpose, in the possession of Joseph and myself. The plates were kept
from the sight of the world, and no one, save Oliver Cowdrey [Cowdery], myself,
Joseph Smith, jr., and David Whitmer, ever saw them. Before the Lord showed the
plates to me, Joseph wished me to see them. But I refused, unless the Lord
should do it. At one time, before the Lord showed them to me, Joseph said I
should see them. I asked him, why he would break the commands of the Lord! He
said, you have done so much I am afraid you will not believe unless you see
them. I replied, ‘Joseph, I know all about it. The Lord has showed to me ten
times more about it than you know.’"--Here we inquired of Mr. Harris-- How did
the Lord show you these things? He replied, "I am forbidden to say anything
[about] how the Lord showed them to me, except that by the power of God I have
seen them."
Mr. Harris continues: "I hefted the plates many times,
and should think they weighed forty or fifty pounds.
When Joseph had obtained the plates, he communicated
the fact to his father and mother. The plates remained concealed in the tree top
until he got the chest made. He then went after them and brought them home.
While on his way home with the plates, he was met by what appeared to be a man,
who demanded the plates, and struck him with a club on his side, which was all
black and blue. Joseph knocked the man down, and then ran for home, and was much
out of breath. When he arrived at home, he handed the plates in at the window,
and they were received from him by his mother. They were then hidden under the
hearth in his father’s house. But the wall being partly down, it was feared that
certain ones, who were trying to get possession of the plates, would get under
the house and dig them out. Joseph then took them out, and hid them under the
old cooper’s shop, by taking up a board and digging in the ground and burying
them. When they were taken from there, they were put into an old Ontario
glass-box. Old Mr. Beman sawed off the ends, making the box the right length to
put them in, and when they went in he said he heard them jink, but he was not
permitted to see them. He told me so.
The money-diggers claimed that they had as much right
to the plates as Joseph had, as they were in company together. They claimed that
Joseph had been [a] traitor, and had appropriated to himself that which belonged
to them. For this reason Joseph was afraid of them, and continued concealing the
plates. After they had been concealed under the floor of the cooper’s shop for a
short time, Joseph was warned to remove them. He said he was warned by an angel.
He took them out and hid them up in the chamber of the cooper’s shop among the
flags. That night some one came, took up the floor, and dug up the earth, and
would have found the plates had they not been removed.
These things had all occurred before I talked with
Joseph respecting the plates. But I had the account of it from Joseph, his wife,
brothers, sisters, his father and mother. I talked with them separately, that I
might get the truth of the matter. The first time I heard of the matter, my
brother Presarved Harris, who had been in the village of Palmyra, asked me if
[I] had heard about Joseph Smith, jr., having a golden bible. My thoughts were
that the money-diggers had probably dug up an old brass kettle, or something of
the kind. I thought no more of it. This was about the first of October, 1827.
The next day after the talk with my brother, I went to the village, and there I
was asked what I thought of the Gold Bible? I replied, The Scripture says, He
that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is foolishness unto him. I do
not wish to make myself a fool. I don’t know anything about it. Then said I,
what is it about Joe’s Gold Bible? They then went on to say, that they put
whiskey into the old man’s cider and got him half drunk, and he told them all
about it. They then repeated his account, which I found afterwards to agree
substantially with the account given by Joseph. Then said I to them, how do you
know that he has not got such gold plates? They replied, ‘Damn him! angels
appear to men in this enlightened age! Damn him, he ought to be tarred and
feathered for telling such a damned lie!’ Then I said, suppose he has told a
lie, as old Tom Jefferson said, it did [not] matter to him whether a man
believed in one god or twenty. It did not rob his pocket, nor break his shins.
What is it to us if he has told a lie? He has it to answer for if he has lied.
If you should tar and feather all the liars, you would soon be out of funds to
purchase the material.
I then thought of the words of Christ, The kingdom
divided against itself cannot stand. I knew they were of the devil’s kingdom,
and if that is of the devil, his kingdom is divided against itself. I said in my
heart, this is something besides smoke. There is some fire at the bottom of it.
I then determined to go and see Joseph as soon as I could find time.
A day or so before I was ready to visit Joseph, his
mother came over to our house and wished to talk with me. I told her I had not
time to spare, she might talk with my wife, and, in the evening when I had
finished my work I would talk with her. When she commenced talking with me, she
told me respecting his bringing home the plates, and many other things, and said
that Joseph had sent her over and wished me to come and see him. I told her that
I had a time appointed when I would go, and that when the time came I should
then go, but I did not tell her when it was. I sent my boy to harness my horse
and take her home. She wished my wife and daughter to go with her; and they went
and spent most of the day. When they came home, I questioned them about them. My
daughter said, they were about as much as she could lift. They were now in the
glass-box, and my wife said they were very heavy. They both lifted them. I
waited a day or two, when I got up in the morning, took my breakfast, and told
my folks I was going to the village, but went directly to old Mr. Smith’s. I
found that Joseph had gone away to work for Peter Ingersol to get some flour. I
was glad he was absent, for that gave me an opportunity of talking with his wife
and the family about the plates. I talked with them separately, to see if their
stories agreed, and I found they did agree. When Joseph came home I did not wish
him to know that I had been talking with them, so I took him by the arm and led
him away from the rest, and requested him to tell me the story, which he did as
follows. He said: ‘An angel had appeared to him, and told him it was God’s
work.’" Here Mr. Harris seemed to wander from the subject, when we requested him
to continue and tell what Joseph then said. He replied, 'Joseph had before this
described the manner of his finding the plates. He found them by looking in the
stone found in the well of Mason Chase. The family had likewise told me the same
thing.'
Joseph said the angel told him he must quit the
company of the money-diggers. That there were wicked men among them. He must
have no more to do with them. He must not lie, nor swear, nor steal. He told him
to go and look in the spectacles, and he would show him the man that would
assist him. That he did so, and he saw myself, Martin Harris, standing before
him. That struck me with surprise. I told him I wished him to be very careful
about these things. ‘Well,’ said he, ‘I saw you standing before me as plainly as
I do now.’ I said, if it is the devil’s work I will have nothing to do with it;
but if it is the Lord’s, you can have all the money necessary to bring it before
the world. He said the angel told him, that the plates must be translated,
printed and sent before the world. I said, Joseph, you know the doctrine, that
cursed is every one that putteth his trust in man, and maketh flesh his arm; and
we know that the devil is to have great power in the latter days to deceive if
possible the very elect; and I don’t know that you are one of the elect. Now you
must not blame me for not taking your word. If the Lord will show me that it is
his work, you can have all the money you want.
While at Mr. Smith’s I hefted the plates, and I knew
from the heft that they were lead or gold, and I knew that Joseph had not credit
enough to buy so much lead. I left Mr. Smith’s about eleven o’clock and went
home. I retired to my bedroom and prayed God to show me concerning these things,
and I covenanted that if it was his work and he would show me so, I would put
forth my best ability to bring it before the world. He then showed me that I was
his work, and that it was designed to bring in the fullness of his gospel to the
gentiles to fulfill his word, that the first shall be last and the last first.
He showed this to me by the still small voice spoken in the soul. Then I was
satisfied that it was the Lord’s work, and I was under a covenant to bring it
forth.
The excitement in the village upon the subject had
become such that some had threatened to mob Joseph, and also to tar and feather
him. They said he should never leave until he had shown the plates. It was
unsafe for him to remain, so I determined that he must go to his father-in-law’s
in Pennsylvania. He wrote to his brother-in-law Alvah Hale, requesting him to
come for him. I advised Joseph that he must pay all his debts before starting. I
paid them for him, and furnished him money for his journey. I advised him to
take time enough to get ready, so that he might start a day or two in advance:
for he would be mobbed if it was known when he started. We put the box of plates
into a barrel about one-third full of beans and headed it up. I informed Mr.
Hale of the matter, and advised them to cut each a good cudgel and put into the
wagon with them, which they did. It was understood that they were to start on
Monday; but they started on Saturday night and got through safe. This was the
last of October, 1827. It might have been the first of November.' " (Joel
Tiffany, Interview with Martin Harris, pp.163-170)
For more information on this subject:
• Excerpts from LDS.org — Joseph's Seer-stones
• (The Unofficial) 1826 Glass Looking Trial FHE Lesson
• Enchantment — Magic and Money Digging
• Joseph Smith Money Digging Accounts
